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Visit nothing's column >>

NOTHING

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hopefully rational
Articles Posted: 5  Links Seeded: 0
Member Since: 2/2006  Last Seen: 7/13/2006

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Religion...

Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:11 AM EST
religion, islam, god, cartoons, atheist, tolerance, danish
By nothing
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...is a good thing, no matter what you might believe. If you are an atheist, then why should you care that religion fools people into believing something which is not true - that there is a life after death - if it clearly helps them to lead better lives and feel better about themselves (which inevitably means a better community)?

However, fundamentalism is not religion - so no pulling out of the hat the argument against right-wing Islam as an example of a bad religion. Terrorists use the facade of a religion to force Islam as a nation upon people because they know perfectly well that religions must be respected but politics can be freely debated. Wait a second - religions can also be freely debated, can't they?

Yes, of course - however, in political debates the aim is to win, whereas in religious debates (although they may be fiercely contested) the aim should be to promote tolerance.

'Tolerance' does not mean bending rules - including that of the right to publish what one wants - for a minority. Tolerance is absence of persecution and accomodation to a limited extent of another culture. Therefore publishing those cartoons in Denmark was mildly disrespectful, but did not deserve the given response, which showed a much more marked lack of tolerance.

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  • Public Discussion (13)
xs5

Just out of curiousity do you believe in life after death?

    Reply#1 - Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:07 PM EST
    Adam Kemp

    ...why should you care that religion fools people into believing something which is not true

    It's not the false beliefs that bother me as much as the concept that it's OK (and even encouraged) to believe something with no evidence for that belief. Faith, defined as Paul defined it (belief in things unseen), is not a virtue. I think this mode of thinking allows for people to accept all kinds of things without thinking, and it allows people in power to make all kinds of crazy claims without being questioned. That is not only annoying, it is dangerous.

    History has shown many times what happens when people use blind faith and emotion to make their decisions. I have no doubt that the world would be a far better place if this kind of faith was frowned upon.

      Reply#2 - Wed Mar 1, 2006 12:59 AM EST
      nothing

      In response to xs5, personally, I do believe in life after death. I justify this, because I see it as impossible that where I once had capacity for emotion and memory after I die this should somehow cease to exist, especially as it would have to be in the context of a universe of matter - how can nothing exist?

        Reply#3 - Tue Mar 7, 2006 4:54 PM EST
        nothing

        In response to Adam Kemp:

        In Christianity, as in most other religions, reason is placed very, very high on the list of priorities. To take Christianity as the example (and arguably the most important example considering the amount of Christians in the world) rationality, because it is one of the most fundamental characteristics of God that is passed on to us (we who are made in the image of God) must be practised in order for one to be a Christian. Obviously, faith has to be kept in the realm of the spiritual and reason in the realm of the practical in order for this to be a working model.

        I agree completely with you then that when faith overtakes reason (or to put it in philosophical terms, when the necessary dialectic is put into imbalance) such as with Islamic fundamentalists there are often very bad consequences.

          Reply#4 - Tue Mar 7, 2006 5:06 PM EST
          Adam Kemp

          What happens when the "realm of the spiritual" becomes blurry? For instance, it was once considered heresy to even suggest that humans were not a special creation and fundamentally different from other life forms on this planet. We now know that's not true, but many people refuse to accept this. Their faith can't coexist with our current scientific understanding of the world.

          You would like to push this problem away as if it's just extremism, but this problem exists here even among mainstream Christians. The problems we're having with school-boards forcing anti-evolution teachings into classes are a direct result of their inability to accept evidence that goes against their faith.

          My point was that anything that teaches someone to accept an idea "on faith" (any idea) without support is a bad thing. Yet for Christians it is a standard teaching. I cited the example of Paul above, and I often hear this quoted by Christians. They like to say they believe in rationalism and that they don't have blind faith, but if you prod them hard enough eventually they'll go back to their "some things you just have to take on faith" defense.

            Reply#5 - Tue Mar 7, 2006 8:07 PM EST
            nothing

            The defense of 'some things you just have to take on faith' is not, however, going to get people killed - you cannot criticise them for wanting to retain their spirituality (the need for which is biologically implanted in all of us, according to some scientists) in the face of the type of pretty cold and reductionist rationality that points to the lack of a God in the universe. I admit that they may be being hypocritical (I have a family member who is a perfect example), but in the end I think it is necessary to be happy for them and recongnise that they are contributing to society.

            Insofar as school-boards forcing anti-evolutionary teachings into classes is concerned, this seems very wrong to me because creationism only represents the views of a minority of Christians and thus of people in the whole world - children should be given the generally accepted view on things and then as adults they may change their opinions.

            To take a more general point on the situation, I would like to suggest that 'mainstream Christians' contribute overall (taking into account any radical creationist schools they may set up, although they technically would not be mainstream Christians if they did) positively to the world, and therefore cannot be snubbed because of their views which you may consider to be ignorant and damaging.

              Reply#6 - Thu Mar 9, 2006 11:38 AM EST
              Adam Kemp

              My point was that the "blind faith is good" argument is the root of the problem. It's true that not all Christians are creationists, but a large percentage are. Example: Gallup: More Than Half of Americans Reject Evolution, Back Bible. They have no evidence to support creationism, and if you press them they will admit that they have no evidence that the Bible is the Word of God. In most cases they will end up falling back on the "just have faith" defense, and you can see the real problem. People want to believe in spirituality, but when you combine ignorance of science with a fundamentally flawed sense of logic and a dependence on "faith" then invariably you will get results like the poll shown above. You will get a general lack of respect for science and even a strong resistance to scientific knowledge that contradicts that blind faith.

              This is what I think is dangerous. Not in a "they might become terrorists" sort of way, but a "they will slow or stop scientific progress" kind of way.

                Reply#7 - Thu Mar 9, 2006 9:42 PM EST
                nothing

                You have a very good point - I agree with you completely that the creationist movement in America could hinder scientific progress - I suppose that whether or not this offsets the social benefit to society as a result of all the Christians is debatable - is science more important than a well-adjusted society? seems in this case to be the question.

                  Reply#8 - Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:34 AM EST
                  Adam Kemp

                  I don't think religion is necessary for a well adjusted society. It may have been in the past, but I think we've reached a point where it's more of a danger (due to extremism and hindrance to progress) than a benefit.

                    Reply#9 - Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:20 AM EST
                    nothing

                    It is true, in my opinion, that it is not necessary for a well-adjusted society, but I think it helps. And I would say that religion cannot be blamed for extremism - it is just the excuse.

                      Reply#10 - Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:50 PM EST
                      Ainsley Jo Phillips

                      On the subject of proving things...

                      Why--when talking of that controversial "big bang"--do we continue to call it "The Big Bang Theory" instead of "The Big Bang Fact?"

                      I've also only heard the term "The theory of evolution."

                      So, why not teach our beginnings in a number of ways and call them theories:

                      The Big Bang Theory, The Theory Of Evolution, and The Theory Of Creation

                      What I believe you'll come up with by keeping an open mind if some kind of middle-ground that makes parts of all of the theories factual.

                        Reply#11 - Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:43 PM EST
                        Adam Kemp

                        Ainsley: Because that would be equivocation. When we say "Big Bang Theory" or "Theory of Evolution" then we have a particular (scientific) definition of "theory" in mind. The "Theory of Creation" does not meet those criteria, but calling it one implies that it does. It basically implies that creationism is just as scientifically valid as the other theories even though it clearly is not.

                          Reply#12 - Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:55 PM EST
                          nothing

                          Also, I believe that the term 'theory' has a very strict definition - it means that there is some good evidence to support it, but it is not incontrovertible.

                            Reply#13 - Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:54 PM EST
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